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      CommentAuthorrock dathe
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2014
     
    YOU GUYS BACK THE FUCK OFF THAT JOBS MINE
    •  
      CommentAuthorggreggg
    • CommentTimeFeb 28th 2014 edited
     
    There are some good gigs here but I'm also sure many of you could do this one specifically, very well, and it looks like a cool gig: http://jobs.superpedestrian.com/apply/m6RBLw/Communications-Specialist-Writer.htmlenjoy two cosmetics
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      CommentAuthordora
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
     
    yo a friend asked me to spread the word that there is an opening at ferris wheels. if you're interested email your shit to purchasing@ferriswheelsbikeshop.comMust be awful, being so fluffy.
    •  
      CommentAuthordora
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
     
    oh yea non-dudes preferredMust be awful, being so fluffy.
    •  
      CommentAuthor6kidz
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
     
    full time or part time?"Dude's just smashing fructosenormativity, lay off."
    •  
      CommentAuthordora
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2014
     
    FTMust be awful, being so fluffy.
  1.  
    cmon, whattabout equal-opportunity brodettesomebody turn the lights off on this place already.
  2.  
    something tells me i don't want to know what sean's trying to say.You said time was infinite, so why the watch wrapped around your wrist?
    •  
      CommentAuthorrock dathe
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    i don't think it even matters if you're trolling to get a response or if you actually think that women shouldn't be actively recruited in a male dominated field.
  3.  
    rock dathe:male dominated field.


    more importantly, in a field where its more or less common knowledge that many women have an uncomfortable shopping experience because of that dominance.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
  4.  
    IMO, to discourage people from applying based on their gender is wrong. Period.somebody turn the lights off on this place already.
    •  
      CommentAuthornerdo
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    DQ: Does encouraging one person to apply discourage a second from applying? I honestly don't know.Worstcase I'll just zip tie on a seat... but i'd rather not. —Zev (who else)
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      CommentAuthor6kidz
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    Your privilege is showing, Mick."Dude's just smashing fructosenormativity, lay off."
    • CommentAuthorspokenword
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014 edited
     
    ^^^ I kind of thought that way too, but lately have been seriously rethinking it. Like, consider this:

    We've been hiring programmers over the last year, and being super neutral about our recruitment tactics -- job postings on the company website, couple of listings on Stack Overflow, encouraging peeps to tweet and FB spam our listings to their friends, etc. And for our last Javascript engineer position, we must have gotten, like, 60 resumes. 59 of the applications were dudes. I interviewed maybe 25 and all of them were white. And, it's not that we didn't want to hire a white dude, but we kinda had to stop and ask ourselves, "really? this is all that we've got? Granted women are a minority, but even if women programmers are only 10%, that means we ought to have gotten about six applications, instead of one. Did we fuck up somewhere?"

    At the end of the day, we just wanted to be sure that we were opening the field up to the best array of talent that's out there. So, if there are awesome lady coders out there in the market, why aren't they applying? Maybe we just aren't sending the right signals. So, I talked to a lot of women that I know in tech, and they say that, yeah, it gets really tiring being the token person in your shop with lady parts. You gotta spend a ton of time training your co-workers to stop being stupid bros around you, to reassert your basic humanity, so when looking for other gig, anything that doesn't say, "hey, a lot of women work here, too (and they're not even all in marketing)" stinks like a sausage fest and usually discourages women from even trying to apply. And I imagine that the same kinda goes for bike shops.

    There's also a lot of stuff around the way job descriptions are worded or positioned that can also read to a lot of women and minorities as, "sorry, not interested in you." This is a blog post that was written for a startup conference and is mostly oriented towards recruiting conference speakers, but we found it super-relevant as a reality check for us (http://www.dogsandshoes.com/2013/12/make-more-meritocratic-decisions-improve-diversity.html)

    So, yeah, I'd say, you don't want to discourage dudes from applying, but you do want to flip that and say, "Hey, non-dudes, we're -really- interested in having you come in and tell us why you're awesome. We get why this industry is dysfunctional and we want to fix that."

    And, sometimes, to be fair and open about it, you do have to use language like "we pride ourselves on building a diverse team regardless of their background" which some people can take as code for something like quotas or "hey, this is where our priorities are right now, and if you want to apply, that's cool, and if you're sufficiently awesome, then we'll talk." So that can still be discouraging, but it's fair to everyone.

    ETA for nerdo: stating a preference for one type of person discourages people who don't fit into that type.
  5.  
    Excuse my affinity for business ethics then.
    But they're also opening themselves up to a liability by doing that.

    Pre-Employment Inquiries (General)

    As a general rule, the information obtained and requested through the pre-employment process should be limited to those essential for determining if a person is qualified for the job; whereas, information regarding race, sex, national origin, age, and religion are irrelevant in such determinations.

    Employers are explicitly prohibited from making pre-employment inquiries about disability.

    Although state and federal equal opportunity laws do not clearly forbid employers from making pre-employment inquiries that relate to, or disproportionately screen out members based on race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, such inquiries may be used as evidence of an employer's intent to discriminate unless the questions asked can be justified by some business purpose.

    Therefore, inquiries about organizations, clubs, societies, and lodges of which an applicant may be a member or any other questions, which may indicate the applicant's race, sex, national origin, disability status, age, religion, color or ancestry if answered, should generally be avoided.


    source


    If you want to do it right, say it the way the UMich handout below describes; "Ferris Wheels is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer. Women and minorities are encouraged to apply."
    This University of Michigan guideline handout says it pretty well, "Job postings should avoid any mention of gender, even if the intention is to encourage an underrepresented group to apply. For example, a department with few women that wishes to encourage women to apply should not say "great opportunity for career woman" or "great opportunity for stay at home mom looking to re-enter the workforce." Every job posting should include the required statement that "the University of Michigan is an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer," and may also state that "women and minorities are encouraged to apply."

    TL;DR, To say they're "preferred", is wrong.
    To encourage, go for it, just include the disclaimer stating you're an equal opportunity/affirmative action employer.somebody turn the lights off on this place already.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNuggetross
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    stfuuuuuuu
    •  
      CommentAuthornerdo
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014 edited
     
    So you've basically told Dora, a person unaffiliated with that shop, that she spread the word about a job in a way that could be technically illegal if it had come from said shop. Which it didn't.

    dora:oh yea non-dudes preferred encouraged to apply


    ftfy ftfs (fixed that for Sean)Worstcase I'll just zip tie on a seat... but i'd rather not. —Zev (who else)
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      CommentAuthorseanile mick
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014 edited
     
    nerdo, id have gotten the same amount of shit id done the "ftfy" anyway.
    and i wrote all that because i knew that responses like ben's and dave's [edit: and alex's.] would come up, it just demonstrates the closed-mindedness that comes with some people's feelings on the topic, regardless of how noble the intentions are. because it's a fair point to make, and it doesn't just apply to dora's post, there is a right way to do it, and a wrong way. i don't want to see anyone accidentally do it the wrong way.
    and most people get on each other's case re: the gender topic anyway, so i figured a long-winded post about it wouldn't be out of the ordinary.. but because it's not in-step with everybody's view here, i'll take the "you're privileged" flak, whatever..somebody turn the lights off on this place already.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrock dathe
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    sean go back to whatever rich whitebread suburb you came from and start your men's liberation group there
  6.  
    ^case and pointsomebody turn the lights off on this place already.
    •  
      CommentAuthorrock dathe
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014 edited
     
    yo also we're looking for an experienced mechanic at (edit) a local bike shop, non-people like sean preferred
    • CommentAuthorObo
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    Gotta say, spokenword is on the money. And IDGAF if its "illegal". Damn the man (who, in this case, is Sean)I ONLY WEAR CAMPY CONDOMS WITH WHITE WRAPS - joeyfresh
  7.  
    omg you guys just STOPYO NOT EVERYBODY GOES TO EAR SCHOOL OK
    •  
      CommentAuthor6kidz
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    Yes, we're hogging all the space for self-righteousness that Ella usually fills."Dude's just smashing fructosenormativity, lay off."
    •  
      CommentAuthornerdo
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    I just realized I've been way too opinionated on the internet as of late. I need to mellow the fuck out!Worstcase I'll just zip tie on a seat... but i'd rather not. —Zev (who else)
  8.  
    While I always appreciate Alex's fervor, it's just making people who don't see your point not WANT to see it.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    •  
      CommentAuthorrock dathe
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    Yeah one of the downsides if you took the job we're offering is that you'd have to work with me
  9.  
    Also, to spokenword: 1) If Tristan ever reappears or if you have outside contact, he would probably be interested in talking about tech recruiting for women, 2) I can't speak to women getting burnt out, because I don't work in tech (yet?) but I think we can all agree that part of the problem is getting women INTO the industry, so I feel like my point is worth making. From talking to others and reading research and examining my own feelings, I think women don't apply because of an extension of the phenomenon that "Women won't apply to a job unless they meet all the criteria in the listing, but men will apply if they meet 60%". Every dev job listing I have ever read was asking for a unicorn, and women know they're not one, and (apparently) men know they really only want a horse.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    •  
      CommentAuthorNuggetross
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    ^you realize you're only talking to sean, right?
    • CommentAuthorObo
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    Tiny has a very good point re: women in tech. In the 80s ~35% of degrees in CS/IT were awarded to women. Now its down to ~15%. In `Coders at Work` there was a fantastic interview with Fran Allen, who worked at IBM during the late 50s and into the 60s. Women at IBM were actually involved in computing in **equal numbers** as men. That split maintained until computing became a rigid hierarchical structure of bosses and procedure instead of actually doing the work and solving problem creatively. None of the women were promoted and most left computing. And during the 70s and 80s IBM of course became the defacto-standard for computing, until Microsoft, which had no notable women involved on the computing side of things. The lack of women in the field seems to have nothing to do with the work required in the field and only the myths and social environment surrounding the field.I ONLY WEAR CAMPY CONDOMS WITH WHITE WRAPS - joeyfresh
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      CommentAuthorseanile mick
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014 edited
     
    Yea, shes doing the mature thing and talking civily, but to spokenword re: the difficulties of hiring women.
    And those are good points marianna, appealing to the crowd and ensuring a fair playing field is a tough thing (like spokenword said as well). To expand on that, we've been having trouble trying to diversify our new hires. We get a handful to the final interview and thy cancel right beforehand, and some have stated the reason being that they think they would be the first ones to get fired, and then would be left with a niche skill that isnt universally applicable like accouting would be. So our issue is reaching a broad base of minorities, but also reassuring them that their future is safe and they should follow through. Maybe that's another angle you can consider spokenword.somebody turn the lights off on this place already.
    •  
      CommentAuthordora
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    haha! i saw there were like 15 new posts in this thread and i instantly knew ppl were fighting.

    nerdo:So you've basically told Dora, a person unaffiliated with that shop, that she spread the word about a job in a way that could be technically illegal if it had come from said shop. Which it didn't.

    dora:oh yea non-dudes preferred encouraged to apply


    ftfy ftfs (fixed that for Sean)

    yea, dog. that is my obviously MY curt interpretation of the conversation i had with the person who asked me to pass the job opening along.

    +1 for spokenword; much like this conversation, it gets really old having to reassert your humanity in basic life scenarios.

    rock dathe:sean go back to whatever rich whitebread suburb you came from and start your men's liberation group there

    I LOL'd

    and, sean, there is a thing called affirmative action. yes people have gone to the supreme court about it, and the court ultimately upheld affirmative action as a practice. there is a difference between what you are talking about and what is going on here, in the case of the bike shop. I suggest you read this and articles like references 3 through 7. even the dumbass government gets that this is a thing, sean. but, like this conversation, affirmative action is "controversial"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States

    "The impetus toward affirmative action is to redress the DISADVANTAGES ASSOCIATED WITH OVERT HISTORICAL DISCRIMINATION (emphasis mine-i'm yelling). Further impetus is a desire to ensure public institutions, such as universities, hospitals, and police forces, ARE MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE POPULATIONS THEY SERVE." Think about the number of women who walk into bike shops or ride bikes, versus the number of women who work at bike shops. Or presidents; their gender and race, versus the population of the US; 100% white dude vs. not-even-fucking-close-to 100% white dude. not representative!Must be awful, being so fluffy.
  10.  
    Thanks dora, ill read into thosesomebody turn the lights off on this place already.
  11.  
    Affirmative action is controversial in part because (there are some reasonable arguments that) it benefits middle class minorities at the expense of lower class people, and we'd all be better served if the money were invested in things like universal pre-K and healthcare and other things that would give kids more of an equal footing from the get-go. I think there's some merit to that but it's certainly not the only answer, and I fully agree that institutions/etc. should reflect the people they serve.DFL and DTF :D:D:D:D
  12.  
    Arizona snuck in a state funded pre-k program a few years ago and it's been doing wonders for the childrens' competenciessomebody turn the lights off on this place already.
  13.  
    OH I remember that, I forget the details but it was pretty rad how they snuck it in there.DFL and DTF :D:D:D:D
    • CommentAuthorroburrito
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2014
     
    dora:
    and, sean, there is a thing called affirmative action. yes people have gone to the supreme court about it, and the court ultimately upheld affirmative action as a practice. there is a difference between what you are talking about and what is going on here, in the case of the bike shop. I suggest you read this and articles like references 3 through 7. even the dumbass government gets that this is a thing, sean. but, like this conversation, affirmative action is "controversial"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States

    "The impetus toward affirmative action is to redress the DISADVANTAGES ASSOCIATED WITH OVERT HISTORICAL DISCRIMINATION (emphasis mine-i'm yelling). Further impetus is a desire to ensure public institutions, such as universities, hospitals, and police forces, ARE MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE POPULATIONS THEY SERVE." Think about the number of women who walk into bike shops or ride bikes, versus the number of women who work at bike shops. Or presidents; their gender and race, versus the population of the US; 100% white dude vs. not-even-fucking-close-to 100% white dude. not representative!


    I really tried to stay out of this since I don't know many of you well, but this is likely illegal gender discrimination. Affirmative action Title III only applies to education. Title VII only allows for discrimination (as in requiring a protected class) if that class is a "Bona Fide Occupational Qualification". Being a non-dude is not a bona fide occupational qualification bfoq of being a bike mechanic. If say, the bike shop wanted to run female specific programs, like fittings, that might make women feel uncomfortable to be handled by a man, being female might be a qualification. In fact, Title VII is there to prevent discrimination, even for non-minorities.
    Does anyone remember the law suit against hooters for only hiring women? That was settled out of court for a large sum of money and on the condition that hooters start hiring men.

    nerdo:So you've basically told Dora, a person unaffiliated with that shop, that she spread the word about a job in a way that could be technically illegal if it had come from said shop. Which it didn't.

    If the shop asked her to "pass on the word" and the "non-dudes preferred" part, she could be found to be acting as an agent of the shop.

    Would you have been okay if someone posted a position for a secretary and said they preferred women to apply?

    I think I'm pointing this out for the same reason as Sean, not because I'm obscenely offended, but because I people need to be careful with what they say on a public forumA few spokes shy of a wheel.
  14.  
    roburrito:Would you have been okay if someone posted a position for a secretary and said they preferred women to apply?


    I totally see what you're saying and acknowledge that you know the law better than me, but I think you know this isn't a reasonable comparison.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
  15.  
    Unfortunately, reason is often separate from the lawsomebody turn the lights off on this place already.
  16.  
    Well fucking duh, but Rob is asking "WOULD YOU HAVE BEEN OKAY WITH IT" which has nothing to do with the lawi mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
  17.  
    wait a second you guys are having a really reasonable discussion
    what the hell is going on in this forumYO NOT EVERYBODY GOES TO EAR SCHOOL OK
  18.  
    tyler:There must be something in the water these days...
    DFL and DTF :D:D:D:D
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014 edited
     
    As much as I agree with spokenword and Dora and everyone, you know that some dickweed MRA would probably find out and apply just to get turned down and sue for the publicity. Shitty ignorant people are shitty. The best thing is to talk with non-dudes and let them know they'd be welcome. The other problem is that working in a shop is a pretty low end job, there's virtually no room for raises or promotions, most places are too small to bother with basic things like health insurance, there's no benefits, etc. If it doesn't seem like you're getting an applicant pool as equal as it should be, it could be because they're trying to make a living. In some ways, it's easier for a white dude to tool around in a bike shop job for a few years because it's enjoyable and then move on and get a real job later without much trouble. Other people probably can't afford to waste those years when they could do better elsewhere and not get trapped in dead end service jobs for life.

    Eta: and coworkers and shop culture is a huge part of it, at least for me. Most shops around here I feel pretty uncomfortable just hanging out in long enough to buy something, and I basically live on bikes. One time a mech and a sales guy had a hugely offensive misogynist bro fest conversation while I was right there, and another time these guys were mocking another woman for not knowing something small while she was in the next room, and that's a shop I regularly go to. It'd take a lot of effort on my part to want to take a job at most of these places, for not much in return. And that's not even considering the misogynist customers that walk in the door."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
    • CommentAuthorObo
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Nandy:Shitty ignorant people are shitty.
    I ONLY WEAR CAMPY CONDOMS WITH WHITE WRAPS - joeyfresh
  19.  
    hey you guys, don't have much time to add to the thread, but I agree that it's a fine point to walk between "trying to correct for bias" and "outright discrimination" What we honestly do try to err on fairness is essentially trying to cast the biggest net possible and hiring the best person that comes up, regardless of gender or other qualities. Many times, it is a guy, just because that's how the market is, and we're cool with that, because at the end of the day, we're have another awesome human being on the team, and that's worth all kinds of excitement.

    But we do try to make the process as competitive as possible, and really it's about trying to get it so that if, say, I have two jobs open for Python programmers and I get resumes from Dudes A, B, C and C is obviously not qualified, B is marginal and A is awesome -- I don't want to put myself in a position where I'm psyched to hire A and I'm 'meh' on B but feeling pressure to hire him just because we want to stop looking at goddamn resumes, and get some actual work done. If Lady Z is out there and amazing, I want to make sure she gets a chance to throw her name in and save us from settling on 'meh' candidates.

    tl;dr -- yay for doing what you can to fix the inherent injustice in the system, but so long as you can get the widest pool of applicants, and then hire the best person based on that pool, that should be the fairest to everyone. It will basically make it tougher for the people who are less than an awesome fit, and would normally just cruise into the position based on sheer inertia, but those people probably have no business working for you anyway.

    and, fuck yeah, mature discussion
    •  
      CommentAuthordora
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    that's true, andy.

    rob you're probably right or whatever but i guess my point was less about the stupid law and more that last part of explaining why people think about things like affirmative action as a concept. i don't expect "the law" to get it, but the fact that white ass folks on capitol hill even sat around and thought about it says a lot about the existence of 'overt historical discrimination', disproportionate representation in the work force, et al.Must be awful, being so fluffy.
  20.  
    Getting back on track here, if anyone wants to be a bike tour guide this summer (or anytime), send me a resume and why you're interested at "info at urban adventours dot com". It's a fun job with flexible hours and you can make bank on tips. Human beings encouraged to apply.Naaaah, too uncool for the #messlyfe. I just like to hang out in loading docks and pretend to talk on my radio so that people will like me. - Mfratt
  21.  
    i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
  22.  
    WHATNaaaah, too uncool for the #messlyfe. I just like to hang out in loading docks and pretend to talk on my radio so that people will like me. - Mfratt
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Lulz, that image is great."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries