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      CommentAuthorstilgar
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2009
     
    the problem with tipping is a different face of a much larger problem, namely the real actual cost of things is hidden from americans. We have cheap shit, cheap labor, cheap gas, all of which are not actually cheap. The underapid wait staff subsidizes your food cost, the government subsidizes your gas price, the poor bastards in China who made your shit subsidize your crap.

    Basically we are not paying anywhere near the cost of what things are worth or cost. You think dvd players cost 15 dollars to make? Hell no, they cost a whole lot more than that but in the parts of the world they are put together no one has to pay for the dirty water, dirty air, cancer etc that comes as a result of making it, so in essence the people there are soaking up the extra cost as suffering. In a similar way the practice of tipping rather than just paying people a full wage artificially lowers the cost of labor in food establishments. The workers suck up the difference as loss of wages. No one else would take a job based upon the goodness of customers for a guarantee of wages, so why should the wait staff do so? Is is less work to brew coffee and serve food if people are not tipping?

    A similar argument can be made for life time costs of shit, for instance we don't pay to dispose of that lead filled computer monitor when we buy it so it is artificially cheaper. Someone is going to pay for it, either through taxes for land fill, or through the health costs of the lead/cadmium/mercury and other heavy metals when it gets into the water supply.

    The end result of all this "moving of cost" to other parties is the gluttony you see around you, we stock up on cheap shit, burn cheap gas, and treat labor like throw away napkins. If everything cost what it truly should we would have and use much less and the rest of the world would be much better off.this wont hurt a bit...
  1.  
    stilgar:I wonder if there is some kind of internet discussion strategy by which you take topic A, how shitty low wage work is, and then attack something not related B (potentially shitty and rich author about book detailing topic A, honestly I don't know anything about the author), so as to avoid talking about topic A.

    Discuss


    I will Discuss. Thanks you.

    Yeah, it's called an ad hominem argument. Basically it's a logical fallacy, where you argue against Arugment A, by saying that the Author of A was bad, and somehow by extension the argument is invalid.

    Sort of like. "You support health care? Well, ya know who had health care were the Nazis."

    The idea is that the thing Nazis did that was bad (War, Genocide) is inseparable from anything else they may have done. By extension, you can replace Health care with breathing, or successful economic policies that can slow rampant inflation. Or do the same thing with Hitler and Art school, or Vegetarianism.

    Ad Hominem is hard to say because it sounds like Add Homonym, so people usually just ignore it if you bring it up in a discussion.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMorgie
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2009
     
    papi:^yeah i feel that. but if everyone were giving 15% at even a slow starbucks that would be way over $2 an hour per employee ... and it's not like they are typical waiters who don't get a decent wage to begin with. Plus they are getting health insurance!! Now they expect me to do math in the morning before I've even had coffee?!

    Don't get me wrong, I tip. And often I'll drop the whole 80 cents on a buck twenty beverage. But i do it out of the goodness of my heart, not because the dude behind counter thinks it's part of his entitled wages... ;)


    don't forget that at places like starbucks that .80 tip is split evenly between all 12 employees.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMorgie
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2009
     
    Also, the bottom line is you shouldn't be going to starbucks. fuck starbucks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMungoRocks
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2009
     
    papi:^yeah i feel that. but if everyone were giving 15% at even a slow starbucks that would be way over $2 an hour per employee ... and it's not like they are typical waiters who don't get a decent wage to begin with. Plus they are getting health insurance!! Now they expect me to do math in the morning before I've even had coffee?!

    Don't get me wrong, I tip. And often I'll drop the whole 80 cents on a buck twenty beverage. But i do it out of the goodness of my heart, not because the dude behind counter thinks it's part of his entitled wages... ;)

    ooooh, bait :-)
    I'm not saying entitled- I'm saying 7.75/hr (starting wage at the 'bucks, if memory serves), with withholding at 9.75/hr, adds up- and again, the bucks splits tips- your tip doesn't go to the moron at the counter who fucked up your order, it gets split evenly among the however-many-employees-there, divided by hours worked etc-
    and if the # for the week is lower than $2/hr/employee, they are being taxed on income they have not earned. and while you may occasionally tip $.80 (and what are you getting that costs $1.20 anyway?) most people don't, and the employees get fucked because the feds are greedy.
    shane's point about the shifting of costs is spot on- in this case, you should pay as the customer, what as the taxpayer you are not (to wit, the share of Gross National Spending that $2/hr/sbuxdrone represents).dongpincher 1000
    •  
      CommentAuthorMungoRocks
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2009
     
    maybe i am saying entitled. I'm about 3 mojitos in. whatever.dongpincher 1000
  2.  
    stilgar:the problem with tipping is a different face of a much larger problem, namely the real actual cost of things is hidden from americans. We have cheap shit, cheap labor, cheap gas, all of which are not actually cheap. The underapid wait staff subsidizes your food cost, the government subsidizes your gas price, the poor bastards in China who made your shit subsidize your crap.

    Basically we are not paying anywhere near the cost of what things are worth or cost. You think dvd players cost 15 dollars to make? Hell no, they cost a whole lot more than that but in the parts of the world they are put together no one has to pay for the dirty water, dirty air, cancer etc that comes as a result of making it, so in essence the people there are soaking up the extra cost as suffering. In a similar way the practice of tipping rather than just paying people a full wage artificially lowers the cost of labor in food establishments. The workers suck up the difference as loss of wages. No one else would take a job based upon the goodness of customers for a guarantee of wages, so why should the wait staff do so? Is is less work to brew coffee and serve food if people are not tipping?

    A similar argument can be made for life time costs of shit, for instance we don't pay to dispose of that lead filled computer monitor when we buy it so it is artificially cheaper. Someone is going to pay for it, either through taxes for land fill, or through the health costs of the lead/cadmium/mercury and other heavy metals when it gets into the water supply.

    The end result of all this "moving of cost" to other parties is the gluttony you see around you, we stock up on cheap shit, burn cheap gas, and treat labor like throw away napkins. If everything cost what it truly should we would have and use much less and the rest of the world would be much better off.


    watch a video illustrating this concept here: [the story of stuff]>I haven't gotten to that part of the poop yet
    •  
      CommentAuthorpapi
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    DannyRocks:maybe i am saying entitled. I'm about 3 mojitos in. whatever.
    haha I gladly tip for a well made mojito.

    and I'm not entirely sure what shane's point in his rant vis-a-vis tipping. but if anything it seems to be going against the whole concept of tipping to begin with. in shanes ideal starbucks would just charge customers 15% more for their apparently under-compensated staff, plus X% more for like the polluting runoff on coffee bean plantations or something.

    if tipping does anything, it just perpetuates(relatively rich) peoples' attitude that stuff is cheaper than it really is, right shane?

    anywho I hate y'all cause when i got the "pairing" of a tall ice coffee and the bacon sammich this a.m. i realized i only had $2 in my wallet and had to pay with my debit card. but of course i was thinking about how much i should be tipping so i ended up dropping the whole $2 for a $4.20 purchase. ughh this is not only prohibitively expensive but was done out of a gross sense of social obligation instead of my usual self-appeasing sense of grandiose benevolence. blah...I'm going to eat your brain and gain your knowledge
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      CommentAuthorstilgar
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    ^I think you illustrate my point perfectly...when forced to pay the actual full price of something you are forced to buy it far fewer times, and

    papi:

    and I'm not entirely sure what shane's point in his rant vis-a-vis tipping. but if anything it seems to be going against the whole concept of tipping to begin with. in shanes ideal starbucks would just charge customers 15% more for their apparently under-compensated staff, plus X% more for like the polluting runoff on coffee bean plantations or something.


    is basically what I am saying, yes starbucks should just raise the prices on everything and then charge what each thing actually costs...the don't of course because passing off much of the expense on the workers, and the third world (where they get the beans) makes their profit margin higher, and their costs lower....I have problems with unregulated capitalism...and I think that everything you said only makes me more comfortable in thinking I might be correct. I am however still open to discussion and if presented with good evidence I think I would change my mind.

    Aisha, a fine video and one that very clearly demonstrates what I was getting at thanks!this wont hurt a bit...
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      CommentAuthorpapi
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    stilgar:^I think you illustrate my point perfectly...when forced to pay the actual full price of something you are forced to buy it far fewer times


    which is fine in my case, cause I'm a.) relatively well off and b.) shouldn't be eating this crap anyway, but what about all the people in this country who can barely afford taking their kids to McDonalds a couple times a year, should they be forced into paying the "actual" costs for things? What's cheap is relative.I'm going to eat your brain and gain your knowledge
    • CommentAuthorowen
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    I usually tip more if I'm paying for something where the person I'm tipping actually has the opportunity to provide me with good or bad service. Like I'm more inclined to tip well if a waiter does a good job than if Starbucks does a good job. Also, at a bar, I would tip more if the bartender actually had to do something. I'm not tipping the same amount for them to open my beer as I would if they were mixing a drink or something. I'll still tip to open a beer because it's polite, but not as much, because there really isn't an opportunity for good or bad service, it's just opening a beer.
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      CommentAuthorstilgar
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    papi:
    stilgar:^I think you illustrate my point perfectly...when forced to pay the actual full price of something you are forced to buy it far fewer times


    which is fine in my case, cause I'm a.) relatively well off and b.) shouldn't be eating this crap anyway, but what about all the people in this country who can barely afford taking their kids to McDonalds a couple times a year, should they be forced into paying the "actual" costs for things? What's cheap is relative.


    You make a good point, but your argument supports mine, because you are basically saying "if we pay the full cost of items, poor Americans will suffer" but it could also be read as "the suffering of poor Americans is more important than the suffering of poor Chinese" or wherever the cheap stuff is coming from. If the full cost of everything was being paid, many of these poor people (who currently are forced to work at places like Starbucks and McDonald's, would be getting paid a lot more at work...thus not as poor.

    when the true cost of things is carried equally by everyone things like horrible poverty, and massive wealth will not happen as much. Basically what happens now is all the wealth is hoovered up towards a very few, and they maintain this wealthy by making others suck up the cost so they don't have to pay it...which is why they fight so hard to maintain the status quo.

    but then again this all sounds like SOCIALISM!!!!! OMG!!!! I am simply proposing better regulated capitalism, which is better for people, and better for the earth, and as you said you shouldn't be eating this crap anyway, and as morgan said, fuck starbucks.this wont hurt a bit...
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      CommentAuthorMungoRocks
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    bostowen:I usually tip more if I'm paying for something where the person I'm tipping actually has the opportunity to provide me with good or bad service. Like I'm more inclined to tip well if a waiter does a good job than if Starbucks does a good job. Also, at a bar, I would tip more if the bartender actually had to do something. I'm not tipping the same amount for them to open my beer as I would if they were mixing a drink or something. I'll still tip to open a beer because it's polite, but not as much, because there really isn't an opportunity for good or bad service, it's just opening a beer.

    Well, you're a douche.


    Also, again, the tips at starbucks are split- your tip money doesn't just go to the register monkey, it also goes to the person who kindly doesn't spit in your drink- further, the waiter only has the oppurtunity to give you good service if the kitchen cooperates, and yet they don't get a share of your tips.
    and as for bar tipping.. there's totally oppurtunity for bad service, even when they are just opening a beer. it's not always the bartenders fault though, and if they do their best you really should tip.dongpincher 1000
    • CommentAuthorowen
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    ^ never said I wasn't. :)
    •  
      CommentAuthorpapi
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    stilgar:
    If the full cost of everything was being paid, many of these poor people (who currently are forced to work at places like Starbucks and McDonald's, would be getting paid a lot more at work...thus not as poor.


    hmmm.. but if all product prices go up X% so that workers make X% more wouldn't they still be as poor? they'll have more cash, but shit will be more expensive!

    DannyRocks:
    Also, again, the tips at starbucks are split- your tip money doesn't just go to the register monkey, it also goes to the person who kindly doesn't spit in your drink


    okay but at least they are getting some tips. how about the poor schlubs at McDonalds? how come they get zero tips? and no health insurance and probably lower wages? does it take that much more skill to make a frappucino then McDee's milkshake? i get that the starbucks management is screwing over the "drones" with this tax issue, but hey you're still making more than the dude flipping burgers while basically doing the same exact job.I'm going to eat your brain and gain your knowledge
    •  
      CommentAuthorstilgar
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    ^exactly, my overall point is thus.

    Shit is a lot more expensive than we think
    people get paid crap so are thus locked into a system that demands cheap crap (a self sustaining poverty trap, cheap shit means we can't pay you a fair wage, which means you can only afford cheap shit, which means we can't pay you a fair wage...etc etc)

    If everyone was paid a fair wage, and shit cost what it really cost, you would have a large amount of people who were middle class, and less rich and poor people. However I doubt any of this will happen soon or quickly...this wont hurt a bit...
  3.  
    NOT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT BUT:

    i have the opportunity to pick up an '87 fat chance complete in decent condition for $350. does this sound like an all right deal, or am i paying a bit more for the brand?You're purposefully attempting to sabotage my degree project. Thanks.
  4.  
    ^depends. Do you think it's a good deal and will it meet the needs you have for it. That's really the determining factor.clockwork ted: this is my favorite thread. sweet BJ alexi!
  5.  
    depends how it rides. but more and more i would love a rigid mtb with slicks to ride around the city.You're purposefully attempting to sabotage my degree project. Thanks.
    • CommentAuthortristan
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2009
     
    Buy it. That is a beautiful chance assuming that everything is in good shape. Cleaned up, its a collectors item which many starry-eyed middle agers trying to remember the golden age of the 80's bikesplosion would lust after.ascott430 - "Was going to build it up into a fixed gear until I realized I'd rather spend money and time on mountain bikes."
  6.  
    ^+1clockwork ted: this is my favorite thread. sweet BJ alexi!
    •  
      CommentAuthorMungoRocks
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2009
     
    conor!:depends how it rides. but more and more i would love a rigid mtb with slicks to ride around the city.

    wordizzle. all the cool kids.dongpincher 1000
    •  
      CommentAuthorIV
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2009
     
    Is hitting cars alright when they've wronged you. I almost got squished last night and on my way by I gave the offending car a good smack to let them know they were in the wrong. It was more of a knee jerk reaction than anything but I became concerned that my slap was in poor taste and could be considered improper etiquette where a good "fuck you dickwad" would have sufficed. Just wondering if I've chipped away at the respect bikers have been striving to earn with my careless brutality. Thanks!
    • CommentAuthorgrev
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2009
     
    hitting cars is only acceptable when you are unable to throw something wet through an open window.not another pitcher!
    •  
      CommentAuthorkatdaley
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2009
     
    ^ thank you, mike.
    I did that to a cab the other day without thinking. I think cabs and the like are fair game. Other cars ... discretion is advised.Behind my Game Boy™, I got game, boy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorIV
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2009
     
    hmm, this wasn't a cab, just a regular car. And I would never go around hitting cars for fun. This woman genuinely put me into danger and I wanted to make her aware that she wasn't the only person on the road. That being said I was in her blind spot (she was in a Toyota sedan of some kind so she could have turned her head 90 degrees and she would have seen me) and it was at night, but I hardly think that's an excuse for pulling through a bike lane to park on Mass ave without signaling, I was quite visible had she made the effort.
    I don't know, maybe next time I'll let myself get sucked under the wheels to teach a driver to check their blind spot. I'd rather have them learn some sort of lesson or begin to drive more cautiously than stoke the fire of angry drivers being angry at bikers because that solves nothing. Maybe next time a more pleasant tap rather than an angry whack on the hood will be more appropriate?
    •  
      CommentAuthorMungoRocks
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2009
     
    fuck that. hit anyone and everyone you want. people don't respect doormats. they'll pay more attention to you if they fear a u-lock coming at their driver-side window than a polite "whistlle- excuse me- please don't hit me"dongpincher 1000
  7.  
    grev:hitting cars is only acceptable when you are unable to throw something wet through an open window.

    or closed. :\You're purposefully attempting to sabotage my degree project. Thanks.
  8.  
    (Totally random)

    when are you gonna let me tap that?

    (sorry - bored, couldn't resist)clockwork ted: this is my favorite thread. sweet BJ alexi!
  9.  
    ^when are you gonna put a ring on my finger? true love waits.

    i hit cars not infrequently, usually just a smack, and never hard enough to actually damage it. you just have to be ready for a driver to get really pissed off, and maybe chase you through Cambridgeport, then you get a tense confrontation and a flat tire for your troubles.DFL and DTF :D:D:D:D
  10.  
    ^^but practice makes perfect! don't they all want it perfect on the wedding night?!clockwork ted: this is my favorite thread. sweet BJ alexi!
  11.  
    is there such a thing as too tight in regard to chain tension?
    •  
      CommentAuthorstilgar
    • CommentTimeSep 17th 2009
     
    ^yes, if you have it too tight it will make everything wear out faster.

    I like it real tight (yes, we know thats what she said) but try and leave a half inch or so of give in it.this wont hurt a bit...
  12.  
    half inch is the norm. i usually run 3/4 or so.

    also: tight = friction. that's why you'll see track racers with looser chains than most.You're purposefully attempting to sabotage my degree project. Thanks.
  13.  
    ok. does that mean a half inch or a quarter inch in each direction? also, how can this be measured accurately? an old yellow plastic ruler?
  14.  
    once your wheel's on and the chain's tensioned, lift it with your finger or a wrench. it should move up about half an inch.

    use guesstimation.You're purposefully attempting to sabotage my degree project. Thanks.
  15.  
    just flip yo shit ^side down
    spin the kranks and let it kost
    if it's not spinning well ->too tiiittteeee
  16.  
    finally, someone who speaks my language
    •  
      CommentAuthorkatdaley
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2009
     
    DannyRocks:fuck that. hit anyone and everyone you want. people don't respect doormats. they'll pay more attention to you if they fear a u-lock coming at their driver-side window than a polite "whistlle- excuse me- please don't hit me"


    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. People don't really pay attention to jerks either. Or if they do, they'll remember the last time someone threatened them with a u-lock and possibly drive even more aggressively the next time they encounter a cyclist. I have been known to chase cars down to speak with them about their less-than-brilliant driving maneuvers. People remember people. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part, but I like to think it's far more effective than threatening people. That being said, cabbies know what they're doing and they generally don't care, thus, fair game. /end rantBehind my Game Boy™, I got game, boy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorRob Gigantic
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2009 edited
     
    ^^^Correction:
    ChicagoKarl:smack it up, flip it, rub it down, oh nooooooo
    Word nerd
  17.  
    Rob Gigantic:^^^Correction:
    ChicagoKarl:smack it up, flip it, rub it down, oh nooooooo


    Wait... is this still talking about chain tension or sex? Or both?clockwork ted: this is my favorite thread. sweet BJ alexi!
    •  
      CommentAuthorstilgar
    • CommentTimeSep 18th 2009 edited
     
    for those too young to rememberthis wont hurt a bit...
    •  
      CommentAuthorBach~ez
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2009
     
    I need to retain the services of a competent bike lawyer, any suggestions ?mrotown: U lock them by the neck to a street sign!
  18.  
    andy fischer.You're purposefully attempting to sabotage my degree project. Thanks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMorgie
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2009
     
    come by cambridge bikes and talk to Dan Palmeiri , he has connections to a really good lawyer he used early this year.
    •  
      CommentAuthorstilgar
    • CommentTimeSep 21st 2009
     
    Bach~ez:I need to retain the services of a competent bike lawyer, any suggestions ?


    andy ficher serious he is good.this wont hurt a bit...
  19.  
    What's already been said. I hear Andy is the man.clockwork ted: this is my favorite thread. sweet BJ alexi!
    • CommentAuthorunit
    • CommentTimeSep 22nd 2009
     
    Is lead paint really bad to be around? or is it one of thoes things you only need to avoid if your elderly/a baby?
  20.  
    1) Do any of you upstanding doctors know what about my bike (ancient women's raleigh cruiser) could be causing IT band pain? Knee pain in general?

    2) Is there a way to cross Soldier's Field Road from Brighton to Watertown (at North Beacon or nearby) that won't result in my dying or shitting myself or dismounting? I've been crossing on foot in the crosswalks cause BITCHES ARE CRAZY, but bitches don't really respect the crosswalks either.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    •  
      CommentAuthorcdrebbel
    • CommentTimeSep 22nd 2009
     
    ^2

    Western Ave perhaps?Fuck yeah.