Not signed in (Sign In)

Category Filter

Welcome, Guest

Want to take part in these discussions? Sign in if you have an account, or apply for one below

Vanilla 1.1.8 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

  1.  
    Need help with moving, fixing something, running a Secret Satan, installing a car stereo, ending capitalism & world hunger, holding Craig up for a Kregstand, finishing a bottle of booze, etc...then post it here!All you white kids look alike when you're still covered in baby fat, so I was getting bored with the non-stop WASP parade.
  2.  
    And I need help with a tattoo idea. I've wanted a tattoo based off of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose) for a long time. I've never gotten it because I couldn't think up a symbol, graphic, etc that I really liked. The most obvious choice is a tattoo of a white rose, but that just doesn't sit well with me for some reason. So, there are enough creative people on here, I figured someone one else might be able to "nail it."All you white kids look alike when you're still covered in baby fat, so I was getting bored with the non-stop WASP parade.
    •  
      CommentAuthorStinky Cheez
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2013 edited
     
    Oh man, what a godsend, I was about to post the following in DQ but it didn't quite seem like the right place to do it:

    A bunch of questions:

    I'm thinking I might maybe be able to get a new bike (or new to me anyway) sometime soon, and as long as I'm dreamin' I figure I might as well dream big. I have a few ideas, some of which seem farther-fetched than others... in the end I think I want something I could go ride D2R2 or a brevet on or just go explorin', probably more cross than touring, but able to do most things short of an actual tour.. so many possibilities no idea what to do (besides that I want something steel and probably with either cantis or disc-brake mounts).

    - I think I'm a fairly "normal" size, should I bother with something custom(ish) or just go with OTP and fancy-ish?

    - People/someone here hates Gunnar, right?

    I do have some actual general ideas:

    Crazypants/probably won't happen: Hot Tubes? So pretty. Geekhouse? Frank the Welder?

    Ever so slightly more likely but still probably not: Ritchey?

    More sane: Gunnar? Vassago?

    ETA: probably the sanest of all, wait and watch v-salon etc looking for a crazy deal on something gently used?
  3.  
    FTW are so fucking well priced for the level of skill that man hasTake-off everything but your rainboots
  4.  
    Yeah, that was my initial instinct... particularly seeing having money for a bike pretty much means I'll be living in SE VT.
  5.  
    Don't get a custom bike if you don't have a particular reason to.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2013
     
    Do support local builders though, if you can. There's so many people who do awesome work, and sometimes they don't have the capacity to do larger production runs, so custom builds aren't all bad."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
  6.  
    tinyhonkshus:Don't get a custom bike if you don't have a particular reason to.


    y? I don't disagree, but I don't think I've heard other people's reasoning.
  7.  
    I guess I should add "unless you have tons of money" and that "want to support a local builder" counts as "a particular reason". That said, I'm not sure I think it's up to those of us in the 15% tax bracket to support local builders - it's a nice thought, but not a reason to bankrupt yourself.

    So, I've had one good and one bad experience ordering customs and one bad and one good experience with the final products. Here's how I feel: 1) They're expensive, and if you aren't ready to say "give me this, I don't care how much it costs", you will end up compromising on things (which may bother you on a custom bike) and you will probably go over budget either way - maybe before, or maybe after you sign off on the design. 2) You don't know what you're getting until it's done. You might work with one of the most revered builders in Boston and receive a bike that is by any standards 2cm too large for you because he didn't want you to have toe overlap. At which point you can try to send it back, or do what I did and accept it anyway cause you think you probably are just missing something cause you're not the one with all those years of experience building bikes. In any case, you will probably still have to go get your custom bike custom fit - which is also a mixed bag. It might also weigh like 40 pounds. 3) it will take a year to make, and then you can add 6 months onto whatever date they promise it to you by, so if you're planning on having it for an event, think again. Also, you might want a different type of bike by the time it's done. 4) they probably DO make that weird thing you want.

    I think buying custom bikes involves a lot of "magical thinking" where people are like "oh, I can get just what I want and it will fit perfectly out of the box and I can paint it whatever color I want", when if you're not 5'3", you can just try a lot of bikes out, know what you're getting, and use the $2k you save to get all the accessories and the $300 paint job that you want.

    And in this case, when cheez says "I'm thinking I might maybe be able to get a new bike (or new to me anyway) sometime soon" that says to me "I am not willing/able to throw money at this". (and yes, I read the disclaimer about dreaming big, I'm just sayin) I guess I'm sort of on the other side of the magical thinking, because any bike I want is probably NOT made in my size by 7 different companies.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    • CommentAuthortristan
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2013
     
    While I endorse everything t-honks has said here, I'd like to add an additional perspective on the same advice. Specific reasons should include specific applications. That is; if you're going to buy a custom bike, be sure that you have a specific purpose/need for it to fill. Asking for a bike that will be a nice road rider, have enough clearance for cx tires, and oh yeah - should be able to carry weight when you feel like it - will leave you with a mess. Custom builders excel at building frames that of a single thing. However, due to relatively low turn around time, high material and labor cost, and general lack of r&d, the finished product will have flaws that shouldn't be present in your multi-thousand dollar bike. If you need a Swiss Army knife of a bike, you're better off ordering from a larger company.

    TL;DR: specific reasons also mean specific applications. Don't get a one of a kind bike meant to do everything ever.ascott430 - "Was going to build it up into a fixed gear until I realized I'd rather spend money and time on mountain bikes."
  8.  
    i agree with a lot of what you said, though i'm just gonna fyi on this bit..
    tinyhonkshus:and the $300 paint job that you want.
    when i asked about painting my Giant I was told it'd void the warranty, so if you do want special paint, wait until your warranty is up :)somebody turn the lights off on this place already.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2013
     
    Another idea is checking out framebuilding courses if you're looking for something fun to do and still support local people. The Artisan's Asylum one isn't super expensive. Otherwise just camp out until you find a sweet used bike you want! The options are limitless."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
    •  
      CommentAuthormrotown
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2013
     
    Awesome points made by tiny. Big props for speaking up against popular perception. Custom has its place but you need to approah it with the right perspective.

    All framebuilders are terrible when it comes to turn around.
    No one can stick with the deadlines quoted.
    This drives me totally nuts.e-f-f-e-c-t a smooth operater operating correctly
    • CommentAuthorryan t
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2013 edited
     
    I was just curious and looking around to see what custom builders offer a BB30 option, and I guess Seven does for an extra 300 bucks on both steel and TI. Not sure why it's so much more, though...?
    • CommentAuthorroburrito
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2013
     
    I've never ridden one, but from pictures, I love what 44 Bikes makes. Big focus on adventure bikes.

    I had a great time with Paul Carson's framebuilding course at the Artisan's Asylum, but last I'd heard he's streamlined the course by standardizing the framebuilds to pretty standard lugged road geometry. But you could always email him if you had something special in mind. In the end, what you make depends on the time and attention you are willing to put into it.

    But if you are fairly normal sized, it seems like the big thing for 2014 was adventure bikes and there are a bunch of awesome options popping up.A few spokes shy of a wheel.
  9.  
    Damn, I figured this would be a good place to ask for advice, but I didn't expect it would be laid down so effectively! (Thanks Tiny! Et al!)

    Ah jeez, so much to think about. Thankfully I have some time (the money won't actually materialize until mid summer, plenty of time to mull it over, and realize all the other things I've been putting off that need spending-on. Stupid reality colliding with my dreams).
  10.  
    Fyi, the order process is that you put a (non-refundable) deposit down to reserve you spot, then pay the rest when theyre building it. If you have a builder with a long line, and youre intent on getting one, you can save during the waiting period.somebody turn the lights off on this place already.
  11.  
    tinyhonkshus:good stuff


    Thanks. I tend to... down-think? the whole custom thing because it usually carries a pretty xenophobic sentiment, as if Willy Wanksalot with a frame jig in rural New Hampshire is somehow a better welder than some dudes and dudettes in Taiwan that are welding all day, errday for a living, and not just as a hobby.
    • CommentAuthorobd2life
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2013
     
    Awesome points made by tiny. Big props for speaking up against popular perception. Custom has its place but you need to approah it with the right perspective.

    Besides, I bought a <a href="http://www.obd2life.com/vvdi-china-vag-vehicle-diagnostic-interface-p-920.html">VVDI programmer</a> from obd2life. And it's really a very stong Auto key programmer. The shipping is very fast and the salesman is very friendly. VVDI programmer is one kind of the best obd2 scanner on the market and the price very attractive. So I introduce it to you.
  12.  
    spammmmmmmalotsomebody turn the lights off on this place already.
    •  
      CommentAuthormrotown
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    ryan t:I was just curious and looking around to see what custom builders offer a BB30 option, and I guess Seven does for an extra 300 bucks on both steel and TI. Not sure why it's so much more, though...?


    The tolerances for BB30 are extremely tight. You're paying for the tooling required to be able to hit those tolerances. Also, don't do it.e-f-f-e-c-t a smooth operater operating correctly
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    juggaluminati:
    tinyhonkshus:good stuff


    Thanks. I tend to... down-think? the whole custom thing because it usually carries a pretty xenophobic sentiment, as if Willy Wanksalot with a frame jig in rural New Hampshire is somehow a better welder than some dudes and dudettes in Taiwan that are welding all day, errday for a living, and not just as a hobby.


    Or you could think about it in terms of sustainability. What adds up to probably tens of thousands of miles of extra shipping takes a sizable toll on the planet, it's likely that most people actually making those frames aren't being paid enough to survive (that profit is going into the pockets of the westerners who own the company, depending on the logo you're talking about), and in most cases it's not a single dude or dudette with the skill to make a solid frame - it's a bunch of machines and a few low-skilled people on an assembly line. Obviously there's a lot of great frames made in Taiwan or places that aren't Boston, but you would have to be a lot more specific before making a statement like that. People who happen to be working in this area are somehow only hobbyists if welding bikes is their only source of income and livelihood? People shouldn't be interested in local things, we should just sit back and let it be brought to us from half way across the planet because we're too lazy to put metal tubes together ourselves? Welding skill probably doesn't depend solely on the location it's being welded in or the genetic makeup of the person doing the welding. That's ridiculous. There's a billion better reasons to buy or not buy custom (or do you just mean local? Those aren't the same) than just giving up on the conversation and calling people xenophobic."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
    • CommentAuthorroburrito
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013 edited
     
    Andy:Or you could think about it in terms of sustainability. What adds up to probably tens of thousands of miles of extra shipping takes a sizable toll on the planet


    While I agree with some of your points, unfortunately the supply chain for custom building is often significantly less efficient and more environmentally costly than ordering from Taiwan. Most custom builders order tubing from a supplier (such as Nova) in small batches. That supplier in turn gets their tubing from the manufacturer (like Columbus). Who in turn got their raw material from elsewhere. So you have a builder in Boston ordering a single set of tubing from California who orders medium batches of tubing from Italy who gets their steel from god knows where (certainly not Italy). And all of that doesn't include sourcing paint, components, milling/welding supplies.

    On the other hand, if you order a bike from a Taiwanese company, it will be built in Taiwan with tubing likely manufactured in Taiwan from steel probably sourced from mainland China. Everything is ordered in massive quantities so its being transported in the most cost effective means possible. Components will predominantly be manufactured in Taiwan or a comparatively close country. The bikes are shipped over in large quantities to a port relatively close to you.

    I'm only commenting on the efficiency of the supply chain, not the quality of work or the quality of life of the worker.

    If you could find a local builder who ordered directly from True Temper you would be significantly improving the supply chain and supporting American manufacturing.A few spokes shy of a wheel.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013 edited
     
    True, but again it largely depends on the specific company you're talking about, and we don't know everyone's supply chain at every moment. Buying a bike from a local shop that was mass produced far away is still probably more efficient than buying things on amazon or whatever, transportation is extremely wasteful. " If you could find a local builder who ordered directly from True Temper you would be significantly improving the supply chain...". Still, I'm mostly arguing that it's ignorant to say that things made around here are automatically always worse."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
  13.  
    Andy:
    juggaluminati:
    tinyhonkshus:good stuff


    Thanks. I tend to... down-think? the whole custom thing because it usually carries a pretty xenophobic sentiment, as if Willy Wanksalot with a frame jig in rural New Hampshire is somehow a better welder than some dudes and dudettes in Taiwan that are welding all day, errday for a living, and not just as a hobby.


    Or you could think about it in terms of sustainability. What adds up to probably tens of thousands of miles of extra shipping takes a sizable toll on the planet, it's likely that most people actually making those frames aren't being paid enough to survive (that profit is going into the pockets of the westerners who own the company, depending on the logo you're talking about), and in most cases it's not a single dude or dudette with the skill to make a solid frame - it's a bunch of machines and a few low-skilled people on an assembly line. Obviously there's a lot of great frames made in Taiwan or places that aren't Boston, but you would have to be a lot more specific before making a statement like that. People who happen to be working in this area are somehow only hobbyists if welding bikes is their only source of income and livelihood? People shouldn't be interested in local things, we should just sit back and let it be brought to us from half way across the planet because we're too lazy to put metal tubes together ourselves? Welding skill probably doesn't depend solely on the location it's being welded in or the genetic makeup of the person doing the welding. That's ridiculous. There's a billion better reasons to buy or not buy custom (or do you just mean local? Those aren't the same) than just giving up on the conversation and calling people xenophobic.


    I didn't say that all custom builders are doing it as a hobby, I'm saying that the people who are doing it as a hobby, are less likely to make something good. I also only gave one of my reasons why I don't drool over custom frames, because tinyhonkshus already gave a bunch of other ones that I agree with which I wasn't going to copy and paste. I also didn't say that anything made here is automatically worse. I also didn't say that welding skill relies on genetics or location. I also used the qualifier "usually," because what I said was a generalization of what I see and hear from folks in regards to the US vs Elsewhere bike discussion, which probably comes up at least once a day working at a shop with rando customers when it's busy.

    It's also pretty ignorant to assume that most of the workers in those factories "aren't being paid enough to survive," just because they're not western. From all the (admittedly not great) sources I can find, Taiwan is a pretty well-off country in terms of general poverty, and at least one manufacturer that I know of (KHS) is actually a Taiwanese company, with a US office that was pretty much made just to distribute the bikes in the US. Of course working in a factory job sucks, but it doesn't always automatically suck worse because it's somewhere else in the world. I'm also not really sure where you got the idea that I don't believe people should be interested in local things, so I don't know how to argue with that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013 edited
     
    I don't know, maybe read your post again? The argument was stupid to begin with, nothing of relevance is being cited, and it's just getting less coherent. Eta: these are bicycles we're talking about, it's not perfectly black and white and there's too many different factors to consider in anyone's decision. Local/custom isn't always perfect, and neither are huge manufactures. Here's an interesting read: http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/ maybe one of the appeals of local bikes is transparency, they don't have a reason to obfuscate who made it, and you're likely supporting a friend you know in real life to do what they love, instead of a globalised corporate supply chain that's been untrustworthy in the past. The reason companies (khs and locally owned ones excluded) go through the trouble of moving their manufacturing there is to pay people less than what they could get away with where their companies are actually based. "to save on labor and manufacturing costs" pretty much always means "screwing over workers as much as we can". But still, bikes are bikes, it all depends on your motivations for buying a particular bike, local isn't always bad, and it's not always the answer for everyone's needs, and sometimes they even mess up.

    Anyway, if anyone needs help with anything, post away."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
    •  
      CommentAuthortinyhonkshus
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013 edited
     
    I just remembered some other stuff I wanted to add to my original post, namely that you might also put yourself in the position of ordering something that cannot be done - so you ask for it, get a "yes", pay for it, and then a few weeks before delivery it's "We literally cannot do that". And I'm not sure if that's better or worse than its cousin "We really don't want to do that, it would be hard". (I said above that I had a bad ordering experience - this was it)i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    • CommentAuthorMJ
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    tinyhonkshus:I just remembered some other stuff I wanted to add to my original post, namely that you might also put yourself in the position of ordering something that cannot be done - so you ask for it, get a "yes", pay for it, and then a few weeks before delivery it's "We literally cannot do that". And I'm not sure if that's better or worse than its cousin "We really don't want to do that, it would be hard". (I said above that I had a bad ordering experience - this was it)


    Just out of curiosity, what was something that could fall under that "We literally cannot do that" category?

    I would love to build bikes myself somewhere in the future, but I'm just wondering what could be so hard.
  14.  
    That was actually an accessory, a custom chainguard. I guess the lines in the design were too fine? So that wasn't really the frame-builder, it was the cnc guy. Although Tristan had a similar issue with some cable routing, though I don't know the details.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    ^ maybe don't buy things from those people, whoever they are, unless it's really straightforward or used but fits.

    It is hard to know how good your fabricator is when asking for a custom build when neither party really knows what the other wants or needs.

    I'm going to build a touring bike in the spring but don't have any experience figuring out geometry and stuff, so I'm basically trusting the instructor to figure it out, but I guess I'll ask here since it seems like a few people have some experience with it. I'm 5'1, so I don't think I've ever ridden a bike that actually fits me. The Terry has felt like the closest to a normal fit, but do I want a touring bike with a small front wheel? Would I definitely be better off with 2 650s? Are there any reasons that different sized wheels would be weird on a touring bike? It's ant bike Mike, so they know how to make bikes with tiny front wheels, I'm just not sure how good they are at designing frames for small people, and I'm not sure what would be best for what I want to use it for. I would actually prefer the different sized wheels, but I don't want to ask for it to be designed around that if the final product will be odd. Thoughts?"life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
  15.  
    Andy:It's ant bike Mike, so they know how to make bikes with tiny front wheels, I'm just not sure how good they are at designing frames for small people


    not greati mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    ...thanks."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
    • CommentAuthorgc
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    go 26" or 650b, preferably 26" as there are plenty of rims/tires out there. I don't believe there are any rims or tires suitable for touring made in 650c.gone
  16.  
    Andy:...thanks.


    I don't know what that ellipsis supposed to mean, but I'm trying to be helpful.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    Whoops, I meant 650b for both. The other option is a 700c rear with a 24x1 in the front.

    I appreciate the warning, but more information would be helpful. He seems to have a pretty vast portfolio of touring bikes and has made at least a few smaller bikes. Should I just be super specific about exactly what I need, maybe consult an engineer for sizing? I'm not sure what "not great" tells me."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
    •  
      CommentAuthortinyhonkshus
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013 edited
     
    Don't let him give you a geometry that's too big for you. Figure out what is a realistic cockpit length and saddle-vertical to bb distance for you and say "that won't work" if he suggests something that won't work. I have a bike that fit me perfectly right out of the box, and Mike sold me a bike that had a 2cm longer top tube, a 50 or 60mm longer stem, and a setback seatpost. I was super specific about features I wanted, but left the sizing to him - so I was like "650B, horizontal top tube" and he was like "sure!" and didn't mention that he would have to make it not fit to achieve that.

    And I feel bad shitting on him, because he has a reason for everything he does, it just didn't work for me and it was a bad experience. He totally immediately offered to make it right, and picked the bike up and replaced the stem and brought it back, and he's a really lovely person, so I try to avoid talking about it in terms of "he makes bad bikes" or anything like that, but I do want to share the "I had a shitty experience ordering a custom bike" element of it. It fits now, but the saddle is as far down and forward as it goes, which doesn't bode well for someday changing the fit slightly. The bars were also really bad for my smallness.

    here is what he sent me in the email: "The issue is making the bike without toe overlap [foot hitting the front wheel]. This a major safety issue and I made your bike that way, which requires a steep seat angle [which is good for shorter people anyway] and the top tube has to be a certain length along with a shorter stem. My touring bike is set up the same way [and all touring bikes I build]."

    So, as someone who needs a 52cm tt with a 30 or 40mm stem, this philosophy didn't really work when the tt had to be 54cm to avoid the overlap, with 650s with 38mm tires. I should look into the seat angle argument, because I feel like I'm too close to the bb, horizontally.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy
    •  
      CommentAuthornerdo
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    One huge problem with custom is that everybody has a different opinion about what the best fit for each specific purpose is (see Rivendell), so you might be buying into a school of thought rather than getting what you're comfortable with. Here's Rivendell again, who I think are the most opinionated (and wrong) about fit and sizing: "When you come to us for a bike, we'll ask what size you ride now, and invariably put you on a bike that's two to five centimeters bigger."Worstcase I'll just zip tie on a seat... but i'd rather not. —Zev (who else)
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    That's important to know! Thanks. I'll keep that in mind and work as close with him as possible about the design. If he's so concerned about toe overlap, maybe the 24" front will be a better option, since that isn't an issue on my Terry. Most of the bikes I own are technically way too tall for me, so at least I have a decent idea of what to aim for, and what the limits are. Maybe I'll get back into making technical drawings and study bike geometry to give him a pretty finished plan. He is great at making gorgeous frames, though."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
    • CommentAuthortristan
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    My understanding is that Mike also builds frames around a certain stock geometry that is his standard. This stock geometry doesn't match everybody's needs.ascott430 - "Was going to build it up into a fixed gear until I realized I'd rather spend money and time on mountain bikes."
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    He did an awesome job designing mpp's cargo bikes, I could ride the same bikes comfortably as my boss who is probably over 6'. Haven't ridden his non-cargo bikes, but it's good to know all that. Time to do some research."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
  17.  
    Don't buy a touring bike from mike. If you are going custom, and want to stay local go peter mooney or IF. I've seen too many cracked bikes built by mike, and even more janky racks with butt welds instead.

    Ps I love mike, he is a swell guy and all I'm not hating on him.Take-off everything but your rainboots
    •  
      CommentAuthorNandy
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    Welp. We're taking the framebuilding course anyway, we'll get some kind of bikes out of it and love them, even if they aren't perfect. Don't tell Nat, because he's super excited about it and really loves Mike's work. It's sort of like a tribute to his grandfather who loved to build things, so he's paying for it with part of his inheritance. It's also part of our honeymoon vacation thing. These aren't going to be performance bikes that will see tons of miles, maybe a couple easy tours. The important part is the fun."life is hard, cats are soft." - surprisefries
  18.  
    ^Sounds rad, post pics of the process?

    DQ Why do people care about toe overlap on a freewheeled bike?DFL and DTF :D:D:D:D
    •  
      CommentAuthortweedledum
    • CommentTimeDec 31st 2013
     
    chr|s sedition:And I need help with a tattoo idea. I've wanted a tattoo based off of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose) for a long time. I've never gotten it because I couldn't think up a symbol, graphic, etc that I really liked. The most obvious choice is a tattoo of a white rose, but that just doesn't sit well with me for some reason. So, there are enough creative people on here, I figured someone one else might be able to "nail it."


    So, they did a graffiti campaign, right? What if you combined the rose image with the texts, like, you use the phrases of their graffiti to draw the outline of a rose? & use white ink for the letters
  19.  
    ^ Oh, that is an interesting idea! On the exhausted, freezing, kinda drunk ride home from work last night a decent idea hit me. On May 1, 1935 there was a May Day parade near Saarbrucken. While it was a "May Day," parade, it was really nothing more that a National Socialist / Hitler Youth parade. Basically, the entire parade was marching in brown shirts and throwing Seig Heils everywhere...except for about 8 people; They marched carrying a tattered green flag of their own (soon to be outlawed) youth group, and made a conscious effort to stand out from the nazi masses. One of the people in that group later went on to become a core White Rose member. So, the idea that hit me last night...a tattoo of that tattered flag, if I can find out what the logo on it was.All you white kids look alike when you're still covered in baby fat, so I was getting bored with the non-stop WASP parade.
    • CommentAuthorroburrito
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2014
     
    ^ From a quick read of Willi Graf's wiki page it looks like the flag was his school's flag, Ludwigsgymnasium. I didn't have much luck finding what that flag is, but that could be because I'm searching in English instead of German. If you are really interested, I could email my German friend for help with the search.A few spokes shy of a wheel.
    • CommentAuthorroburrito
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2014
     
    This symbol keeps popping up when searching for Weiße Rose



    The first is from a book about the White Rose, the second from a museum exhibit on them.A few spokes shy of a wheel.
  20.  
    interesting.All you white kids look alike when you're still covered in baby fat, so I was getting bored with the non-stop WASP parade.
  21.  
    roburrito:^ From a quick read of Willi Graf's wiki page it looks like the flag was his school's flag, Ludwigsgymnasium. I didn't have much luck finding what that flag is, but that could be because I'm searching in English instead of German. If you are really interested, I could email my German friend for help with the search.

    Hah. I should have remembered it was his school flag; I wrote most his wiki page. I have a bunch of info on his school. I'll have to dig deeper on that one.All you white kids look alike when you're still covered in baby fat, so I was getting bored with the non-stop WASP parade.
    •  
      CommentAuthortinyhonkshus
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2014 edited
     
    this source (in German) doesn't say anything about the flag being tattered, but rather having gold fringe and tassels

    also, you are pretty likely to go wrong trying to figure out what this flag looked like without a photo, the school is like 400 years old.

    German sleuthing is making me feel better about myself - might just edit this post all day.

    I assume you have considered a tattoo of the memorial in Munich of the fliers in the ground?

    also also: That circle-flower graphic Rob found is the logo of the White Rose Foundation (Weisse Rose Stiftung) which is a group founded in 1987 by surviving White Rose members in memory of the movement, it looks like they keep records and participate in memorial building, etc.i mean that looks like a 10 cat bag, easy